Help talk:Adding New Songs

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Revision as of 10:12, 23 January 2006 by Bailey (talk | contribs) (adding lyricist(s))
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Page titles

I'd like to suggest a change from the naming convention of "Artist - Title" to just plain "Title"

Here are the reasons why:

  • Songs are often recorded by various artists over the years. So doing Artist - Title can be misleading
  • If the page was just the name of the Song then it should be easier to find using the Search function especially if the first item on this list is true

--

The reason it's artist - title is specifically because of the reason you mention, with just title we'd end up with conflicts ;)

As well, just searching for the artist, or the song, does return a list of pages with that word in it. Try it :)

-Nanenj 12:28, 25 December 2005 (PST)

Yeah, we talked about the possibility of doing that, but decide that we'd run into too many conflicts. One of the major ones is that there are frequently multiple songs with the same name that are completely unrelated. one quick example: Both Disturbed and Prodigy have songs named "Breathe", and they're completely different songs.

Another problem is that even when a song is re-recorded by a new artist, sometimes the lyrics are changed slighly. An example of this can be seen in the cover of Metro (oringally by Berlin) that System of a Down did; the lyrics of the two are slightly different.

In the case of covers, it's probably best to just have a note on the page for whoever did the cover noting who did the original, with a link back to the original.

-Evelyn 12:26, 25 December 2005 (PST)

I suggest we move to KiwiLyrics's old naming scheme. KiwiLyrics is dead, so I'm sure they won't mind. They used the format "Artist/Album" and put all the lyrics from the CD on one page. However, if lyrics from different songs must be on separate pages, the format could be "Artist/Album/Title". This was a very effective method. -MindlessXD 15:36, 27 December 2005 (PST)

I'm not sure how that's much different then what we do have already. It seems that just uses a / instead of -. Is there any reason in particular that that's better?

-Nanenj 16:03, 27 December 2005 (PST)

It is better if a user can type "http://lyriki.com/Metallica/Master_of_Puppets" and get all the lyrics for that album. As of right now, it seems that that style of URLs is disabled. I don't know much about running a wiki, so I don't know how to turn it on, but if enabled, this style works very well. --MindlessXD 16:08, 27 December 2005 (PST)
Another advantage is that when " - " is a wiki title, it's link becomes "_-_" which is much more difficult to type than a slash. --MindlessXD 16:47, 27 December 2005 (PST)
the type of url you're describing has to be configured in conjunction with the apache2 server (if this wiki is running on apache2) details can be found short urls Bailey 17:27, 27 December 2005 (PST)
I'll have Evelyn look into this :) That does make a bit more sense, and it seems like that'd make one of my secondary goals more easily done. (Integrating third party tools with the wiki.) Thanks for the suggestion. -Nanenj 22:02, 27 December 2005 (PST)
Replying to myself, but, something important. I -think- I've reached a semi-compromise on organization, and on making the URLs slightly easier, and will allow easier random browsing overall of the wiki. I think I actually had the idea when Lyriki was first formed, but, then shit happened and we had a long time of absence and I'd forgotten (mainly cause we weren't very organized) what direction I was wanting to head. Anyways, I digress. Basically there's the category functionality. Mindless has done very well setting up most of that, the biggest plus to that functionality is that certain 'index' pages update automagically when you tag the pages properly. Also, to get rid of the _-_ problem, I believe if you look at the Audioslave:Out_of_Exile (2005) page, that's an idea I had way back when as that entry is one of Lyriki's first. That rids the _-_ thing, and makes contextual sense with how categories on wiki's work. Please let me know what you guys think on this. --Nanenj 20:34, 28 December 2005 (PST)

One more edit on the above subject :). Bailey's link provides some inventive ways of using mod_rewrite, which we may look into. However, for the time being, the search bar on the left is immensely helpful for getting somewhere fast, as well as the artist table of contents on the main page. However, the decision to add year to avoid conflicts between albums and song names, does put a bit of a hamper on the usefulness of http://lyriki.com/Metallica/Master_Of_Puppets example as most people probably don't know the release dates of the albums, however, if the mod_rewrite stuff works, it'd be just as simple to do http://lyriki.com/Metallica and then click the appropriate album. --Nanenj 11:56, 30 December 2005 (PST)

Here is an example that is somewhat like what KiwiLyrics had. It eliminates song pages by puting all the songs on an album on the album page. I'm guessing we probably won't go with this, but I wanted to show what it would look like. --MindlessXD 10:36, 31 December 2005 (PST)
Unless there's an overwhelming demand to move to that style, I rather like having the song pages seperate myself. To be absolutely clear, Lyriki is a service, and as such will do it's best to make itself the most useful to the people who want to use, IE: It's not entirely about what I want :P. --Nanenj 13:50, 31 December 2005 (PST)
I agree, but it seems we don't have many people around that want to give opinions. :( --MindlessXD 14:08, 31 December 2005 (PST)
I think that'll change, Lyriki's gotten a second wind, it was a bit neglected when both Evelyn and I had other responsibilities, not much was getting added and there was little incentive to take part. I've restarted advertising lyriki wherever I can, and have been devoting much more time to it, as well you've done a profound amount of work on the site. It'll grow and become more and more useful. Hopefully all the places I've been linking it from will cause it to raise in google's search ranks and more people will find Lyriki. I've also made sure to rate it in Stumbleupon so that random people will stumble upon the site. So, I think opinions will start coming in eventually. :) --Nanenj 16:38, 31 December 2005 (PST)

Signing Pages

Should users really sign artist pages, as the Help:Adding New Artists page implies? This seems very un-wiki-esque, if that makes any sense. --MindlessXD 18:55, 27 December 2005 (PST)

--

In a way it does, but, at the same time. The reason for signing, is mainly habit. It's especially useful on 'talk' pages, and it's decently useful any time there's multiple edits, just to keep track of who is writing what. I also like that people are credited for their effort in initially adding something.

It's also a 'recommendation' ;) Which means do it if you like, don't if you don't. I personally like that ;)

-Nanenj 22:00, 27 December 2005 (PST)

If lyriki is to grow, I think we will eventually have to prohibit people from signing their contributions, as does Wikipedia. Mainly because the names/IPs appear in the history and once you have 10 contributions (corrections) on one page, that't 10 signatures, which is just annoying. But hey, I just got here :-D--Orgullomoore 02:36, 28 December 2005 (PST)
Meh... I had forgotten to sign my question. :P I completely agree with signing talk pages, though. --MindlessXD 15:11, 28 December 2005 (PST)
It's very useful on the talk pages, me thinks ;). On the actual pages though, it's more of a sign if you're the one making the initial contribution. If you're simply editing a small bit, or what not, signing might not be recommended. I think on the Komm Susser Todd page I did sign something I added, but, it'd of been more appropriate for the 'talk' page on that particular song. :P Still learning a bit :) --Nanenj 15:25, 28 December 2005 (PST)}
On the talk pages we will of course have to sign...I neglected to specify that I was talking strictly about the pages in the main namespace (0)--Orgullomoore 01:14, 29 December 2005 (PST)
I wonder how far we'll go with this indenting thing... Ahem ;). Yar, as for normal pages, the idea from my point of view was just to sign the initial contribution, specifically on single album and lyric pages, the discography pages might have complete sections from people. More like, if you're adding something completely new, it's at your discretion to put a signature at the end. If you're just making a small change, correcting a typo, misheard word, etc, don't bother. --Nanenj 01:17, 29 December 2005 (PST)
  • no signatures- thats my vote on the matter. signatures imply ownership. as in "this is my opinion or view" which is why we sign on talk pages. Signing articles can come up as meaning that this is an article that was created by a single person, which in the end, it isn't. Bailey 12:16, 30 December 2005 (PST)
Perhaps you're right. I do wish there was a way to -easily- tell initial contribution however. I suppose the detailed history provides a way. Most seem not to like the idea of signing contributions, so feel free to remove the existing signatures (as well as edit anything that leans towards the contrary. --Nanenj 15:40, 30 December 2005 (PST)

Instrument Songs

If a song is completely instrumental, should it have a page? Or should the title on the album page be left linkless? --MindlessXD 16:08, 29 December 2005 (PST)

This is one of those that took Evelyn and I awhile to even get an initial direction on, for the sake of completeness, we decided that it should have it's own page, just because their may be additional info related to that specific song. Whilst the goal of lyriki is of course lyrics, we also aim to be as complete as possible in the information we host. If you've nothing else to add to an instrumental track, just make the page with a note saying such. Later, someone might drop in with who composed the tune, etc, etc, various trivial tidbits relevant to that specific track. --Nanenj 11:21, 30 December 2005 (PST)

Page Deletion Requests

Where do I make requests for page deletion? --MindlessXD 17:59, 29 December 2005 (PST)

I went ahead and made Category:Lyriki:Deletion for deletion requests. --MindlessXD 09:30, 30 December 2005 (PST)

Folklore songs

How do you handle songs where the songwriter is unknown?
For instance I would like to add a few spanish songs that were sung sometimes by the Mexican singer/actor Pedro Infante and the same song by Jorge Negrete. They are sung the same way with minor speed differences.
Other songs are written and composed by a few songwriters and musicians i.e Raúl Lavista and Ernesto Cortázar and sung by Pedro Infante or other singers. How are those entered?
I would like to add those songs, and attribute them to their correspondent artist(s) but don't want to create a chaos in the lyriki database ;-)
Somehow I would also like to add "Mexican Songs" as a genre or something like that, if it's possible

Some songs also appear on different albums:

One live example already in the database:
the album If We Could Only See Us Now contains the song Thrice:The Artist In The Ambulance (Live at the Apple Store) but the song only lists
Album: The Artist in the Ambulance

How is this handled? -- Robi 23:15, 18 January 2006 (CST)

In the case of the Thrice song, take a look at how Thrice:Cold Cash and Colder Hearts is done. You can link to more than one artist album from a single page. As for how to handle songs where the songwriter is unknown, I think there are a few possibilities. You could do a separate entry for the song under each artist, perhaps with a note saying it was also performed by the other artists (which is actually what I would do with Thrice:Eleanor Rigby, since it's actually a cover of a Beatles song), or you could do Unknown:Song Title, and then list the artists that you know have performed it. --Evelyn 22:00, 18 January 2006 (PST)
I think Evelyn's answered the question about songs being on multiple albums. If there's slight variations, note the variation on the songs page. The Mexican song question, I'm not so sure I understand the question. Typically I rely on creating links as if I could buy a CD. If I went to a shop and could by a CD labled as 'Pedro Infante' I would list all the songs under that, due the album-based organization we have. I would perhaps make notes if I had the information that it was written by someone else. You present good questions that we should be able to find an answer for if we aim to be a quality database of lyrics on the net. I guess my answer is the songs so far are only listed by the performing artist. Even if there are multiple performances, which I believe is what Evelyn was getting at when she mentioned Eleanor Rigby since it's a cover of a Beatles song. Both the Beatles and Thrice have performed the song. If it's a song that can't be placed as such, as I'm sure there probably is, we need to come up with a way to uniquely title these songs to avoid confusing collisions. Let me know what you think. --Nanenj 23:13, 18 January 2006 (PST)
Also, I missed where you mentioned Mexican Songs as a genre, is there something categorically different that they need an entirely different classification? Or would it be eneough if we made a Genre category? The only reason I've not even mentioned this before now is there can be alot of infighting in determining the genre of some domestic bands, where people get hung up on -what- type of rock something is. Or what exactly the definition of nu-metal is, or some such silly things. I'm not opposed to getting a Genre categorization and using that for indexing just like we do the artist and album alphabetic indexes via categories. I just don't want to update it myself. I could perhaps babble on a bit more, but, I think it'd be best to let others get a word in ;) --Nanenj 23:22, 18 January 2006 (PST)
<confused> Perhaps redirect pages could be of use here, but I'm not really sure I understand what the problem is... </confused> --MindlessXD 17:18, 19 January 2006 (PST)

adding lyricist(s)

I thought I should mention that there really should be a field to identify the author of the lyrics not just the person or group that performs the song. Quite a few songs have their lyrics written by a completely different person Bailey 09:11, 23 January 2006 (PST)